“…Rorschach goes berserk!”

After making a joking “next issue blurb” for Watchmen in yesterday’s post, I thought I’d dig into the Vast Mikester Archives and find the actual blurbs DC used in their editorial pages. I pulled these from the Deluxe Checklists that appeared in DC’s direct sales only Baxter-paper books from late ’86 through late ’87.

There may be some minor SPOILERS ahead, in case you haven’t read the comic yet:

WATCHMEN #1:
Who watches the Watchmen? Beginning a maxi-series unlike all others about super-heroes in the real world, as told by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #2:
Rorschach continues his hunt for the hero-killer, and we get to learn more about the Watchmen and their predecessors, courtesy of Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #3:
All the facts about Doctor Manhattan are spelled out and they will stun you! Plus more excerpts from Hollis Mason’s book. All by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons!

WATCHMEN #4:
The maxi-series continues with the origin of Dr. Manhattan … as the mystery deepens! A book-lengther by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #5:
The tension builds, the mystery deepens, and the hero killer strikes again as Rorschach goes berserk! A classic by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #6:
Revealed at last! The life story of Rorschach! A classic tale from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #7:
The mystery of the mask-killer grows! Nite Owl and the Silk Spectre go out on patrol for the first time since the Keene Act! Another instant classic by Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons!

WATCHMEN #8:
As war approaches, Nite Owl and the Silk Spectre spring Rorschach from prison. A must-read from Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #9:
Silk Spectre reveals her origin as she tries to convince Dr. Manhattan to come home. From Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #10:
The countdown to nuclear armageddon continues as Rorschach and Nite Owl reunite! Must reading from Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #11:
Revealed at last! The origin of Ozymandias in the series’ penultimate issue! Another classic from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.

WATCHMEN #12:
Thirty-two pages of story conclude this blockbuster series as you’ll finally get the answer to ‘Who Watches the Watchmen?’ An instant classic from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.

A couple of notes:

Issue #4 notes that the story is a “book-lengther,” implying that no back-up feature was expected to follow the three-part “Under the Hood” series from the first three issues, making room for the letters pages that (as I was corrected about by a couple of readers yesterday) were to occupy the back pages of the comic. Obviously that turned out not to be the case, but thought it was interesting that the original plans for the series still slipped into the next issue blurb.

The other comment is more general, in that it’s somewhat amusing to read these blurbs which boil down one of the most significant comic books ever published to something that doesn’t sound any different from any of the other comics being blurbed on the same page. Right next to the blurb for Watchmen #5 was this entry for Vigilante #37:

“The Vigilante is out for blood – and being stalked by the Peacemaker! By Paul Kupperberg, Tod Smith & Rick Magyar. Plus: A Mike Grell cover!

Or this one for New Teen Titans #27:

“It’s the search for Nightwing and Raven as the Titans face the Church of Brother Blood and the girl known as Twister! A must-read from Marv Wolfman, Kerry Gammill & Romeo Tanghal.”

Let’s do a little switcheroo here:

“Nite Owl is out for blood – and being stalked by Rorschach! By Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons. Plus: A Mike Grell cover!”

I didn’t change the Grell bit, if only because I pictured what that would be like and it was awesome. Anyway, I hope you see what I’m getting at here, about how the Watchmen blurbs look in context with DC’s other more traditional super-books. Of course, what was I expecting?

“The life of Rorschach revealed, showing why you violent fantasy prone fanboys idolizing him and similar characters are demonstrably wrong. Another instant classic by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons!”

“Revealed at last! Symbolism you won’t get! Text pages you’ll only skim! Our company’s bread-and-butter superhero genre entirely undermined in Watchmen‘s most subversive issue yet! By Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.”

Yeah, that might not have gone over as well.

Yes, the post’s point is basically “reading a comic book is different from reading a trade paperback.”

So all this Watchmen talk had me thinking…I’ve spoken to a handful of people at the shop who were new to the work, and reported stalling a bit on the text pieces between chapters. My advice to them was to go ahead and skip those bits if they’re getting in the way of the story, and go back and read them afterward. Yeah, okay, some of you are wincing, but according to a few of those folks that strategy seemed to work.

And this is what got me wondering. I read Watchmen in its original serialized format, one issue every month (or six weeks, or two months). That meant I had plenty of time to read the comic portion of the story and digest the text back-up pieces before the next issue came out.

However, in the collected format, I wonder if the text pieces function more as “speed bumps” for some readers, interruptions between chapters of the “real” story that one feels obligated to slog through before going on to the pages with actual comics on them. Without the time gaps between chapters forced by the monthly-or-so release schedule, perhaps some readers feel as if they have less time to contemplate the text pieces, knowing that the plot continues just a page turn or two away.

That’s just a random thought that occurred to me during a discussion of the work I was having yesterday. I could be completely off…but I’ve heard from enough people that the text back-ups did slow them up a bit that I think, in some cases, the pacing is drastically altered by the story’s collection under one cover.

Anyway, the other advice to readers, besides “skip ’em ’til the end,” is “take it slow” — don’t feel like you have to speed through the entire book in record time. Read just a chapter (plus text piece) a day, let it sink in, move on to the next chapter the next day. Or a few days later…whatever. But if you still feel the need to just skim that owl essay supposedly by Dan Dreiberg…well, I don’t tell anyone.

On a related note, in a preview for Watchmen that appeared in Amazing Heroes #97 (June 1986), it says the following:

“In place of a letters page in the first three issues you won’t be seeing the usual awkward selection of biographies or series notes, but extracts from ‘Under the Hood,’ the memoirs of Hollis Mason, the original Nite-Owl.”

Now I suspect this may have been a misinterpretation by the article’s writer, who was told that the first three issues would have that back-up feature and may have assumed that the letters column would appear after the back-ups were completed. Or maybe the other back-ups actually were late additions…which seems a bit unlikely, but possible, I suppose. (EDIT: Okay, ignore my suppositions…Augie reminds me that Dave Gibbons’ book Watching the Watchmen confirms the initial plans for a letter column.)

But now I’m imagining Watchmen with letter columns, people writing in guessing how it’s going to end, talking about how badass Rorschach is, asking why Dr. Manhattan isn’t wearing pants, etc. And of course the editorial plug for the next installment:

“NEXT ISSUE: One character learns a terrible secret about the past, while another makes a fateful decision that will change The Watchmen forever! Watch for issue #9, The Darkness of Mere Being by Moore and Gibbons, coming next month!”

I enjoyed writing that last bit far more than I should have.

It’s not often I get to link to a Cookie Monster video while talking about Watchmen marketing.


So DC Comics is releasing a handful of $1.00 sampler issues to capitalize on interest in the Watchmen movie, including first issues of Preacher, Transmetropolitan, Planetary and the seemingly odd choice of Identity Crisis, along with the above pictured comic reprinting #21 of Saga of the Swamp Thing.

Now, I say “seemingly odd” because while it feels like a very “one of these things is not like the other” sort of situation, it does 1) feature DC’s major superheroes 2) in a murder mystery (which Watchmen is, among other things) 3) by a best-selling author, so I get where they’re coming from. ‘Course, while I did like Identity Crisis, it ain’t a patch on Watchmen, so I really can’t blame anyone too much for a little eye-rolling at DC’s attempt to connect the two. But, you know, can’t fault DC for trying.

The timing is a bit tragic, too, since my experience with nearly every comic book based movie aside from the first Batman film has been that movie-driven demand for the related comics almost completely vanishes as soon as the flick opens. The people DC wants to reach with these $1.00 books, which are slated to begin arriving in stores the week after the film’s release date, are coming into stores right now. I’m currently getting plenty of people in the door who aren’t regular customers looking for “this Watchmen thing.” I’ll only get a fraction as many after March 6th.

It may be a moot point anyway, since most media-driven comics demand results in sales of just that particular item being advertised. I’m no slouch at salesmanship, but by and large people coming in just to buy, say, the new Stephen King comic don’t want to buy anything else. However, given that the trade dress for these $1.00 books actually has the Watchmen logo on it, I admit that it is possible it might attract the attention of, and be an easier sale to, anyone coming in just for that book.

Anyway, we’ll see. At least I’ll get another Swamp Thing item out of this, because I really don’t have enough already. Plus, we’ll have $1.00 samplers for various graphic novels that I’ll be able to use as sales tools for the near future…and I can give them away during Free Comic Book Day, too. Heck, they cost us about as much as some of the FCBD books anyway.

In conclusion: I can use these $1.00 “After Watchmen” comics, but unless Watchmen bucks the trend and the general non-comics-fan audience continues demanding Watchmen comics after the movie’s release, those $1.00 books will primarily be additional marketing for the regular customer base.

Then again, this is Watchmen we’re talking about. It’s a graphic novel that, even 20+ years after its release, can easily outsell many brand new graphic novels, movie or no movie. Hopefully Mr. Cynical-Pants Blogger here will be pleasantly surprised.

I also wanted to note that the clock design in the “After Watchmen” logo made me laugh. Well played, sirs.


READ MORE ABOUT IT: Bully, the Little Stuffed Bull, takes a look at Watchmen merchandise. Enjoy, won’t you?

From the Amazing Heroes Preview Special #4 (Winter 1987).

At the end of the Watchmen entry:

“Current plans call for the entire Watchmen saga to be reprinted in both hardcover and softcover formats for release through bookstores once the story is completed, and [Alan] Moore is optimistic about the eventuality of a Watchmen film.”

‘Course, I have no idea what Mr. Moore actually said. He could very well have been looking forward to a movie version of his comic, though the article says he’s optimistic about the eventuality of a film, not the film itself. Depending on how you read that, he could have said something like “oh, I’m sure there’ll be a Watchmen movie. I’m positive it’ll be terrible.”

…And, you know, that’s an optimism of sorts.

Hard to believe the film’s only about three weeks away, isn’t it? Seems like only yesterday people were complaining that Watchmen could only be properly made as a 12-part HBO series. Oh, wait, that probably was yesterday…or even today.

At any rate, we’d better sell our Watchmen books at the shop while we still can. Just in case.

In which Mike points at things people are selling (or giving away, in one case).

Uh….


(from here)

I love the weird-ass Watchmen stuff that’s been turning up on the eBay lately.


EL GORGO #2 UNLEASHED UPON UNSUSPECTING WORLD – Millions Flee in Panic!


Go to that link, and you can 1) download the full comic in PDF or CBR formats, 2) read the whole enchilada online, and/or 3) pre-order the print edition, which, as I know from having ordered the first issue for the shop, is a quality product, full color on good paper and secured with at least two staples.

C’mon, it’s a gorilla luchador, you’ve gotta at least take a peek.


NOT COMICS: For you old Mystery Science Theatre 3000 fans, the newest release from MST creator Joel Hodgson’s new project Cinematic Titanic is out: Frankenstein’s Castle of Freaks, available on DVD or by download. With each new entry the CT project is just getting better and funnier, and well worth the purchase.

If you look at only one Manga Watchmen site today…

…make it this one.


That’s why I poke through my site’s referral logs…because sooner or later some of the trails found there will eventually lead me to sites like that. Go, enjoy manga versions of the Watchmen cast. WARNING: Manga Doctor Manhattan will break you.

Also found, poking around on that site: MANGA DARKSEID.

Other links of note:

  • Pal Dorian has finally transplanted (postmodernbarney.com) from Blogger to WordPress, and the results are quite nice-looking. That was one of my (many) broken New Year’s resolutions from last year, moving my site to WordPress, but now that Dor’s done it, I can bug him for help.
  • Stuff Geeks Love is back from the holiday hiatus. Thank goodness, since I’ve missed it.
  • Internet chum and movie endurer Ken Lowery has posted his 10 Best/5 Worst Movies list, which is good readin’, as is all of Ken’s writing over there. How good is he? He made me appreciate the film Doomsday after my initial “…the hell?” reaction.
  • I didn’t explicitly ask for predictions for the coming year in yesterday’s mile-long post, but if you want to leave some for examination next year, feel free in that post’s comments section.

    I’m probably going to hold off on making any predictions myself…well, other than someone will do something stupid that’ll cause me irritation out of proportion to the actual offense, but only because that seems to happen every year anyway.

  • Some serious stuff:

    Here’s an update on Carla and her husband Lance, injured in the recent Santa Barbara fires.

    And this is the most recent update on the murder of our longtime customer Sean. Not much new news so far, other than his employers offering a $10,000 dollar reward. I also want to note that friends of Sean’s have set up some donation jars around town to raise money for his family, including at our shop…and I’m glad to say that our customers have been very generous and giving.

    Very strange not seeing Sean at the shop this past week. Strange and sad.

Hello to my three remaining readers!

  • Employee Tim noted something to me yesterday as he was working on the cycle sheets: Kevin Smith’s Batman: Cacophony #2 hasn’t come out yet. The first issue was released November 12th, and if it’s supposed to be monthly, issue #2 would have been out last Wednesday. And since it’s not going to be out this coming Wednesday, that means it’s a minimum of six weeks between these two issues.

    Not a big deal, especially nowadays where a delay of a week or two is fairly common on monthlies, but something to keep an eye on considering the assurances made ahead of time for this series. (‘Course, I think the assurances made have been more along the lines of “all the scripts are in” and “it won’t take years to complete, honest” rather than “this series won’t be late at all.”)

  • So that reprint of Watchmen #1 came out last week, and whenever we get a comic in with a promotional price point (like Watchmen‘s $1.50) I like to put a tag on the shelf to advertise it.

    Here’s the tag I put up…you can blame Employee Aaron for giving me the idea for the Watchmen-related details I added:


    We find our fun where we can.

    Now, I did make an effort to let people know that there was only going to be the #1, but I am curious to see if, a month or so from now, we start getting inquiries for the second issue.

    It does make me wonder, if DC went ahead and just rereleased the entire series, how it would sell. We ordered modestly on the first issue, figuring we might move a handful of copies off the shelf and then have them around as “samplers” for people who don’t want to drop twenty bucks for the softcover. But we sold through all our copies over the weekend, and that has me thinking that maybe there are enough comic fans out there who don’t tend to buy trade paperbacks to make a full comic book format reprinting of the Watchmen series worthwhile. I know it’s hard to imagine, given the general direction of the comics market from periodicals toward collections, but there are still comic fans who resist buying any squarebound reprint books. And, equally hard to believe I’m sure, there are still comic fans who haven’t read Watchmen. A full twelve issue reprint series could be a good way to grab at least some of those holdouts.

    Hey, with a movie coming out, you might as well hit every market level while you can. I’m hoping…praying…for a prose novelization of the Watchmen movie knocked out by Hacky McHackerton. You just know that would be fantastic.

  • I was poking through a copy of Harvey Hits #1 (1986) and noticed this story with Richie Rich and Little Audrey, ripped from today’s headlines 22 years ahead of time:


    Basically, they’re strapped into this menacing-looking chair and they’re “thought-projected” into a TV show they can watch:


    But there is one hideous, horrible aspect to these shows they’re generating:


    THEIR BIG HEADS ARE EVEN BIGGER.

    Seriously, this is terrifying, watching those big ol’ noggins threaten to snap their spindly little bodies like balsa wood.

    But this does bring up the idea of body-image in the Harvey-verse. Are the characters aware of the freakishly-large craniums they have? Does this awareness translate to an exaggerated self-image that, as seemingly evidenced by the thought-projection seen above, results in a belief in a body-versus-head size ratio far greater than actuality?

    Surely this serious topic requires further investigation.

“Reprints?” This is like the most reprinted comic ever…oh, wait, you mean in regular comic format.

  • And Chris thought he was joking.

    So I was looking in the most recent issue of Comic Buyer’s Guide, and happened across a letter from a reader, who was wondering about DC Comics’ publishing strategies re: Watchmen, what with the new movie coming out an’ all. To wit:

    “For Watchmen, there should be reprints of the original Alan Moore series or one-shots of each Watchman character by today’s hottest writers and artists. The only things I’ve seen from DC on this epic series are the trade paperback, the Absolute edition, and a Millennium Edition reprint of the first issue. And outside of Rorschach’s cameo in The Question some years back, nothing else. Why is that? I know Alan Moore wants nothing more to do with DC Comics, but, since they’re company-owned, why not showcase the characters in one-shots or Hypertime team-ups?”

    Okay, I promise I’m not posting that excerpt from the letter to make fun of the guy. (Well, except for the Hypertime comment. That reference is a few years out of date.) Because, while on the face of it, it does seem ridiculous that new comics featuring the Watchmen characters would even be considered…I have to admit, I am at least a little surprised that DC hasn’t published new material based on the original mini.

    I suppose a lot of it has to do with not wanting to dilute the perception, or the sales, of the original with new, and almost certainly inferior, material. And of course there’s not wanting to tick off Alan Moore or Dave Gibbons (more Gibbons, now, since it’s pretty clear hell will freeze over before Moore comes back to DC), and then there’s the possible fan backlash, and the attendant bad publicity, and so on.

    But that letter shows that there very well may be a market for such things, now…people who don’t care, or even remember, the whole brouhaha involving Moore and Watchmen and DC…who just want new adventures of the characters, and aren’t interested in the creators behind them. A Batman/Rorschach team-up comic would find a pretty welcoming audience, I’d imagine. Hell, even I’d want to check it out, just for the sheer “what th–!?” factor.

    I don’t expect any such thing to actually happen, of course…if it were to happen at any time, right now, with the movie adaptation on the horizon, would be the time for it. Though we have at least one or two more rounds of solicitations from DC Comics for books that would come out before or around the movie’s release date…there’s always a slim chance we’d have a shocking surprise. (“The NEW Birds of Prey #1…starring Silk Spectre!”)

    We are getting new story material, of a sort…original Watchmen editor Len Wein is writing the script for the prequel video game (while noting in the interview that a sequel to the original story is very unlikely). And Gibbons has done a few new illustrations, for bookcovers or movie promos or what have you…not new story material, by any means, but still, they are new pics.

    I suppose this is one of those times we should be thankful for comics’ general irrelevance in relation to Big Hollywood Promotion/Money-Making (aside from being R&D for new films). One memo handed down from Warner Brothers asking DC for more new Watchmen comics to capitalize on the film could be all it takes, Mike said cynically.

  • Following up on the whole “triangle numbers” thing from yesterday…Tom reminds me that the triangle number did eventually get enclosed in a Superman shield-shaped pentagon. A quick glance at the books reveal that this happened, at least in Action Comics, with the March 2000 issue. So there you go, in case you were wondering.
  • Speaking of my comments, JET asks

    “So, just how long are you going to hold off commenting on the fact that your president-elect is a comics collector?”

    Well, it’s neat, assuming it’s true. But I haven’t brought it up because, really, I don’t know what to add. I’ve not seen any pics of him kicking it on a beach somewhere, reading an issue of Conan. But if he gives a speech after he takes office, recommending the solution to the troubled economy is slabbing all of your professionally-graded comics…well, make space in the guesthouse, Steven, because I’m comin’ to Canada and movin’ in!

  • Would you like to know what is the awesome? An eight-page preview of El Gorgo #2, that is what is the awesome. The first comment in reaction to that preview over there is “El Gorgo! you are fantastico!” — and there’s nothing I can add to that.
  • PLEASE NOTE: one of my favorite writers on comics, a certain Andrew W., has moved from his old Blogspot digs to the new address of www.armagideon-time.com. No more freebie MP3 downloads (he explains why in his initial post, though you can probably guess the reasons), but it still remains some of the smartest writing on popular culture you’ll find. He gets my HIGHEST RECOMMENDATION…and you know me, I don’t like anyone, so you know that recommendation really means something.

We may have received some Spanish-language comics in a collection recently.

House ad from Los Vengadores #26 (1981), published in Mexico:


“DIABOLICO – DESTRUCTOR DEL CRIMEN” – fan-tastic.

And now, for no good reason…from the same comic, Captain America and Quicksilver versus Attuma:


I like how most (but not all, I know) of the dialogue on this page looks like declarative expressions, ending in periods instead of the typical exclamation points. “Cap, Attuma is attacking! We have to stop him!” “Whoa there, Quicksilver baby. Don’t get so uptight, man.”

And now, suddenly, for even less reason…Spanish Rorschach from an edition of Watchmen #1 published in Spain:


I may have said this bit of dialogue about a hundred or so times to Employee Aaron on Friday. I don’t know why either.

In which I reach a serious level of perversity in regards to Watchmen film merchandise.

One of the unintended consequences of running my Things Not to Say… mini-comic a couple of days ago is that I am now getting people feeding me the “I’m very disappointed” line both in my comments sections and at the shop (and I’m totally looking at you, Brandon from the game store next door).

And, you know, that’s fine. So long as you all can deal with the guilt when I finally snap and wreak havoc throughout the county and strike terror into the hearts of its denizens, starting with poor, innocent Employee Aaron.

Anyhoo, I’m glad you all seemed to enjoy (or at least tolerate) some of my old mini-comics work. You can see a fuzzy scan of the cover of the print edition of Mike Sterling’s Progressive Ruin in my first anniversary post, which also has a reproduction of a letter of comment I wrote as a 12 year old, but feel free to skip that. But there’s a little more detail regarding our comics-publishing concern there, if you’re interested. And if you want to see another strip I did from those days, I posted one here three years ago…be sure to click the “page two” link for…the rest of the story.


In other (well, mostly store-related) news:

  • Watchmen appears to be available, or at least orderable, from our distributor again. But now Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is out of stock. ARGH!
  • Spent some time over the last day or so swapping out some of the promo posters from the wall and in the window…it’s always best to get those posters out of the window before they all turn the same shade of blue. I also went through our section of posters intended for retail sale and did a little maintenance, and noticed a few things:

    1. Whoo boy, nobody wants that “Brand New Day” Spider-Man/Wolverine poster.

    2. …But that “Iron Man in space” poster by Joe Quesada did very well. Thanks, popular and surprisingly-good movie!

    3. COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS WE DON’T NEED ANY MORE POSTERS OF: The Fantastic Four. Okay, maybe more solo ones of the Thing. And I realize there are a lot more posters out there of, say, Spider-Man, but Spidey posters generally sell (the poster in point 1 excepted). FF posters, not so much.

    4. Oh good gravy, we still have that damned New Warriors poster from the early ’90s? And I actually put it in the poster rack for display? “HELLO COME LOOK AT MY ALBATROSS HANGING IN THE POSTER RACK RATHER THAN AROUND MY NECK.”

    5. I think we may be past the “sell-by” date on the couple of Matrix posters we have left.

    6. Now I’m wondering what sort of Watchmen posters we’ll get as part of the movie merchandising push. These ones, for sure, but maybe we’ll get a nice shot of Rorschach, hands on his hips, standing heroically, chest and chin thrust out, and a big blocky “RORSCHACH” logo across the poster’s bottom edge. Or maybe he can be throwing a punch at the viewer. Basically, I want the same type of posters that we got with 1997’s Batman and Robin.

  • Speaking of Watchmen merchandise, it occurred to me that we’re going to get the inevitable trading card set based on the film, and that it’ll likely feature those peculiar “own a piece of the prop/costume” cards that feature a small piece of said prop/costume cut out and embedded into the card. Dr. Manhattan’s costume cards would have to be entirely from the flashbacks (“Congratulations! You are the proud owner of a piece of Dr. Manhattan’s ‘plum-smugglers’ from the Warner Bros. film ‘Watchmen'”).*

    I thought it’d be neat if they could come up with a way to make special “Rorschach” chase cards, with a layer of black liquid floating between two thin semi-translucent pieces of white plastic…but of course, it probably wouldn’t take much for one of those to break, damaging other cards in the pack/box. Maybe some kind of heat-sensitive card…a close of up Rorschach’s mask, that looks blank until you apply some heat to it and the black patterns begin to show up.

    This is what I think about when I really should be thinking about something else. Anything else.

  • Also, judging by reaction to the idea Kid Chris and I had about a Mario Kart-style Watchmen racing game…there ain’t nobody who doesn’t want that game. “Ain’t anybody?” Well, you know what I mean…the people have spoken, and they want Giant-Headed Silk Spectre and Dr. Manhattan ‘n’ so on in their little race cars. Who could blame them?
* Okay, Dr. Manhattan’s costumes, such as they are, will likely be computer-generated, too. Unless the actor will be wearing the costume, and the “Dr. Manhattan” effect will be added to his body after the fact, or…I’m thinking too much about this.