So I asked for some questions/post suggestions a while back, and in comes customer Sean, trying to kill me:
“I stumbled upon an Instagram post the other day regarding a story from the ’60s where Superman goes to the future and visits the grown up iteration of the Legion of Super-Heroes.
“He walks through a hallway with sculptures of the Legionnaires who have perished in battle–Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid, Chemical King, etc., and Brainiac Five (who is smoking a pipe!), shows Kal , via tele-screen, Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl, who have started a family, at their home. There are also references to Lightning Man and Saturn Woman, Cosmic Man and Night Woman, and Timberwolf and Light Woman as married couples.”
Superman does indeed! This brings to mind the fact that initially, DC was going to make things even more confusing in regard to Legion of Super-Heroes continuity. Superboy, as we all know, would travel 1,000 years into the future to visit his Legion pals and have adventures and punch Validus an’ stuff. However, someone had the idea that Supergirl should also be able to travel to the future and hang out with the Legion.
And as you also know, DC Comics aficionados that you are, Supergirl was introduced into the Superman comics when Superman was…well, a man. Having Supergirl travel into the future and hang out with the same folks that also hang out with her cousin when he was a boy and hadn’t yet met her…well, you see the problem here.
The solution was, of course, not to have Supergirl travel into the future and meet the Legion. But instead of doing that rational course of action, she went to the future anyway. Like, just a little bit further into the future (or maybe less, given the relative starting points of Superboy initiating time travel from an earlier point in the timestream than Supergirl, but perhaps I digress) to meet…the children of the original Legion of Super-Heroes!
This is in Superman #267, from 1960, and obviously this solved all the continuity issues and…nah, just kidding, someone clearly decided “this is insane” and the Legion Kids just kinda went away. And if Supergirl met Superboy during some Legion adventure, there was just some kinda memory-adjusting hand-waving so that Superboy wouldn’t remember certain details about his trips to the future. There’s probably a citation for this in one of the comics somewhere, but I’ve already done enough research for this post.
But let’s get back to Sean’s invoking of that Superman Meets the Adult Legion story, which takes place in Adventure Comics #354 and #355 in 1967, the first issue of which is pictured here:
An interesting note about that cover: for the panels ‘n’ such I’m presenting here, I’m generally capturing them from DC Comics’ digital comics service, to save the wear and tear on my Legion of Super-Heroes Archives hardcovers from flattening ’em out on my scanner to get a good image. However, the cover for this issue that they have on this service has “Shadow Woman” colored blue, to match the famously azure Shadow Lass from the non-adult Legion. I pulled the above image from an eBay auction, which shows how the cover was originally colored. (And I should note, the cover is colored correctly in the Legion Archives.)
Speaking of those panels, here are a couple demonstrating what Sean was talking about, with Superman wandering through the memorial wing here:
…followed by the Hall of Hookin’ Up, with, I guess, the 30th-century equivalent of wedding pictures:
Now, I get what DC was trying to do here…they wanted Superman to have his own adventures with the Legion, but not in a way that would result in, say, meeting his younger self during one of his adventures with the Legion. So, like they tried to do with Supergirl by giving her a distinct Legion team of her own to visit, they were attempting to give Superman his own distinct team. Basically, the same team, but older. The “Adult Legion” made a handful of appearances, but again, someone decided that having two versions of the same team like this was too convoluted, so the idea was phased out.
However, the army of Legion fans did not forget, and the specter of this glimpse into the future weighed heavily over Shadow Lass, when she first appeared a few months later in Adventure Comics #365. The fact that she had blue skin when the “Shadow Woman” statue had Caucasian skin tones didn’t seem to matter much. It was presumed that her fate was maybe kinda sorta sealed.
You know who didn’t like the Adult Legion stories? Paul Levitz, the guy who would spend much of the ’80s writing the Legion, that’s who. When it came time to write Legion of Super-Heroes #300, the extra-sized anniversary issue, he decided to devote a portion of the story nodding towards the predictions made by that old Adult Legion story. (Also part of the issue was devoted to this.)
Even down to Shadow Lass putting on pink make-up and calling herself “Shadow Woman.”
This was Leviiz’s explicit thumbing of the nose at the Adult Legion stories being the “official” future of the Legion, as Shadow Lass does indeed save the Science Asteroid, and does not die. And that, as they say, is that. ‘Til we get to the whole “Five Years Later” thing, which is Adult Legion x1000, frankly.
Oh, and I forgot to show you Smoking Brainy, in his, I’m pretty sure, one appearance:
…smoking that soup ladle, or whatever the hell that is.
So all that actually answered a few of Sean’s other questions about the Adult Legion, except
“Have Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl’s offspring ever been mentioned or featured in stories again?”
…and I’m going to say “no,” I don’t feel like they popped up again, but I’ve not read all these stories in forever. They do have a kid in one of the many rebooted versions of the Legion, according to my Googling, but I don’t think it’s meant to be the same as what you see in the Adult Legion.
“Instead of constantly rebooting the Legion, why doesn’t DC Comics try an approach where the offspring of the original classic Silver/Bronze Age Legion (1958 – 1994) form a legacy Legion team? Clearly at least Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl, and Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl did have/will have offspring at some point. So, we can assume other Legionaries did or will as well. This way new characters could be added more organically, and we could also get new power sets for new Legion recruits who aren’t offspring, but are teenagers.”
Hmmmmmm, they already tried the Legion Kids with Supergirl way back when. I think keeping the Legion as just This One Thing In Space/Time in relation to DC’s other heroes is the best idea, reducing complications and confusion.
“Also, would the offspring of Wildfire and Dawnstar be named ‘Wildstar’ or ‘Dawnfire?'”
Well, “Wildstar” is already taken by Jerry Ordway, so “Dawnfire” is it! Unless that’s taken too.
“What would Blok and White Witch’s offspring be like?”
I don’t know…a big chunk of gypsum, maybe? I’d probably be careful about naming the character after that, though.
Poor Cosmic Man and his receding hairline! You’d think male-pattern baldness would’ve been solved by the 30th Century.
While it’s true to say the Legion never fully recovered from the Crisis, this blog post makes clear that their continuity edifice — bolted together from a decade of sometimes self-contradictory Silver Age tales — was never as solid as it looked, even under the magnificent reign of Levitz & Giffin.
The time travel shenanigans of Superboy and the Legion always made me a little crazy. Could Superboy only travel exactly 1000 years into the future? Did he return on the same day in the past? Or did Ma and Pa Kent have to pretend he was ill or visiting an aunt for the weeks he was in the future? Did he age while he was there? If he could travel more precisely why didn’t he travel two weeks extra into the future, find out how they beat Mordru or Grimbor, then go back two weeks to make it happen? When he was summoned for Legion meetings or emergencies while he was in the past why did he leave straight away? He’s time traveling. He could leave ten years later, and still arrive on the day they wanted him, except he would be Superman.
Honestly, the Legion was so much better once he stopped turning up.
I agree that the Legion is better without Superboy. I mean, what are Ultra Boy and Mon-El there for if he’s around?
The time travel logic works only if we believe that moments exactly 1000 years in the future are moving into the past the same way current moments are moving into the past, but a) that doesn’t make much sense and b) we don’t have to assume that. Someone could probably tell a pretty interesting story about a 20th-century traveler meeting the Legion for out-of-order adventures.
I’ve always been intrigued by the Adult Legion, and I’m sad Levitz didn’t share that sentiment. But I’m sure he didn’t want to be hemmed in by some other writer’s story predictions.
Also, what a weird convention to have statues of everybody all over the place. I understand why you’d want statues of fallen comrades, but statues of married members? Weird. And don’t get me started on Superman’s statues of his friends in the Fortress of Solitude. How would Lois feel running into those? So creepy.
Whats the point of Superboy!?! He is, as they say, the reason for the season. Mon-El is there to be chronically depressed Superboy and Ultra Boy is there to be suddenly inconvenient Superboy (uh oh, I can’t punch and fly at the same time). Wildfire is there to be can’t get laid Superboy. They are all some version of Superboy just with a really specific problem.
Statues everywhere is just part of the Legion aesthetic. Next everyone will be complaining about Interlac text everywhere.
“Why doesn’t Superboy just warn everyone or travel forward to see the solution?” is addressed in Crisis on Infinite Earths when Brainiac 5 is asked why he dated Supergirl when he KNEW the exact date of her death. Something mumbo jumbo menacing the timeline yada yada. That’s also what the Time Trapper is there for, to stop exactly this plot point.
Superboy leaves immediately when summoned because writing “better get back to Element Lad eventually, DON’T FORGET” in his diary is not compelling comics.
The Legion is always 1,000 years from the reader’s future because nobody wants to do math while reading DC Comics, just keep a nice round number.
God bless you Legion fans. I don’t know how you make heads or tails out of any of their continuity, and that’s not even counting all the reboots. Like a powerful psychedelic, I suspect there is some sense of freedom to be had in just giving in to Silver Age zaniness and letting it have its way with you.
Ok, granted I’m not very knowledgeable about much Legion stuff, but is the Science Asteroid really that big of a deal? Seems kinda paltry compared to defeating the Sun Eater or averting World War 7.
Mike, I was all set to write and grouse about not getting to see Brainiac 5’s pipe, then I scrolled down…
My apologies for thinking you’d leave us hanging. After all this time I should have known better.
The Lone Wolf line from Superman makes me think of Batmanuel from the original live action Tick as he explains that his is “lone”, but he is not “alone.”
Up until a friend told me otherwise, I assumed Jon Kent aged because he kept going to the future and aging some each time. He tried to explain what really happened and I shut my ears. Growing up, I thought OK, Superboy doesn’t age until he becomes Superman–let’s say drinking age–before he slowly ages. Otherwise, the exactly 1000 years things doesn’t really work for me.
They did tell the story, but I always “liked” that Chemical King died stopping WW VII with no other mention of the other wars. Because I’m anal.
For the record, I love Interlac, and I’m glad it’s back in the latest Legion reboot. It took me a while to remember the “G” character, though.
As far as travelling slightly further into the future to see how the battle ended…what if he finds out that the villain won? What if he finds out that the Legion gained victory but at the cost of half their members lives? Then, if he decides he must do something to save those lives, what if his changing the timeline leads to the villains winning instead?
It seems it’s a safer idea to not peek ahead and just go about the regular business of defeating super-threats.
I don’t get why naming the character Gypsum would be a problem. I don’t think I get the joke*. They could always call the character Spearstone though, which was the original English word for gypsum.
*The only sense I can make is a reference to “Gypsies”, but those two words come from a completely different root words.
Gypsum comes from a Greek word meaning “plaster”. “Gypsy” was originally the word “Egyptian”, due to a mistaken notion about the origin of the people. Over time, this became mispronounced in English as “Gypsian”, probably with the original meaning forgotten.
Thanks, Mike, for answering my questions. It cracks me up that Kal is wandering around and uses the expression “got hitched” –I always thought of Silver Age Supes as more formal. 1960s Metamorpho or Snapper Carr I could definitely see saying “got hitched” — but not the Silver Age paragon of virtue and fine etiquette, Superman! Also, why isn’t Supes musing on whether he should get hitched to Lois or Lana? And poor Cosmic Man had to suffer many horrible costume designs over the decades and also ended up with a receding hairline. At least he got hitched to Night Woman –not too shabby! But if Light Lass became Light Lady, why didn’t Shadow Lass become Shadow Lady?
I don’t know if you feel like doing a follow up LOSH post or not, but it might be interesting to address whether or not all of the dead Legionnaires shown as Superman is walking down the hallway have had their stories told. I do recall Chemical King dying to prevent WW VII–battling the Australian Regional Governor, Deregon, who was in cahoots with the Dark Circle, in a Paul Levitz/James Sherman story. And I recall Reflecto actually being Superboy in disguise, mind controlled by the spirit of Ultra Boy during some convoluted story arc that Roy Thomas wrote or co-wrote. Was some sort of robot Reflecto created afterwards that Molecule Master destroyed. I feel like I vaguely recall Molecule Master being an android who was destroyed several times; I think he was destroyed by Wildfire the first time. Ferro Lad has to be the greatest Legion death story, and I recall reading the reprint in an issue of the Adventure Comics digest during the ’80s. I know Invisible Kid I also perished, but I don’t think I ever read that story. And I recall reading the Triplicate Girl to Duo Damsel because of Computo running amok tragedy in a reprinted story as well. I do recall Invisible Kid II seemingly meeting Invisible Kid I’s spirit or altered form in some ghost realm during the Levitz/Giffen era. Quantum Queen I recall as a member of The Wanderers–but was her future death story or he joining the Legion ever actually written? I vaguely recall the Shadow Woman skin tone thing, but obviously whatever plot device was used, Shadow Lass survived and remained true blue–thankfully. And I recall Mentalla perishing against Emerald Empress. But for me, the death of Karate Kid was a hard one to take–as I really liked that character.
I’ve still never read Five Years Later, but it seems that a lot of Legionnaires bought the farm in that iteration. But I’m curious to know are there other statues of other dead Legionnaires who are mentioned by name in Adventure Comics no. 354 and no. 355? Also, which other Legion members or close associates perished in the original Silver Age to Copper Age Legion run before Five Years Later and the various reboots?
Also, some links to fun videos by Sasha at Casually Comics regarding Saturn Girl’s Barbarella costume–which was actually created by a fan, not Dave Cockrum; and Cosmic Boy’s corset costume–what was Mike Grell thinking? Actually, the design isn’t that bad if Grell had just given him deep purple or batman-grey leggings and a shirt to offset the rest of the costume–instead of making him look like Dr. Frank-N-Furter…
But, Cosmic Boy still got Night Girl–not too bad!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSnytGXlBeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd65HkN8pNc
I’m 100% in support of Interlac, and love to see it. I’m also pro-statue. Wasn’t there some Legion rule that married members had to quit? So I’m assuming the “Hall of the Hitched” represents those who sacrificed themselves for love and had to leave.
Also, I might have mentioned this a few years back, but DC should do a “Vanquished Heroes of Shanghalla” Special where we get the full accounts of the lives, deaths, and adventures of Leeta 87, Mog Yagor, Hate Face, Nimbok of Vaalor; and recaps on Beast Boy of Lallor, and Triplicate Girl and other Legionnaires enshrined on Shanghalla. Jaime Hernandez could draw it and Beto could write it.
Something which did impress me was that — full-on series reboots aside — Legionnaires’ deaths tended to ‘stick’, and they almost all remained dead. The brief return of the first Invisible Kid was a fake-out, and Wildfire’s resurrection could be explained away as he was a being of sentient energy which had (temporarily) dissipated. LSH writers never had to resort to the kind of retconny shenanigans which brought Professor X and Jean Gray back to life.
Also Wildfire died and returned in the same issue – it wasn’t a Bucky deal where he was dead for 40 years and then returned.
@Sean Mageean: Sasha’s videos about ’70s Legion costumes are really fun and well researched. I enthusiastically second your recommendation.
She posted a new one recently about The Outsiders that might answer some of your questions about other dead Legionnaires shown in the Adult Legion story.
Gotta have statues of your married buddies, because the Legion By-Laws say you can’t hang out with them anymore, because they’re uncool or they’re too busy changing space-diapers or something.
@ Sean and Thom
I third the recommendations. My wife and I enjoy Sasha’s videos. We watched the Cosmic Boy one the other day, haven’t watched Saturn Girl’s yet.
Most of the time my wife’s reaction to many of her video’s goes something like “Really? That actually happened?” and I’m like “Yep, really happened.”
It just goes to show that after 26 years together and her being generally inquisitive about comics/comic history, there are still things that can surprise her.
She still hasn’t seen the Lois Lane “I am curious {Black)! video yet. That might just blow her mind.
Comics – What a weird, wonderful medium and collection of genres we love.
@Sean: thanks on Chemical King. Maybe those other World Wars were bad for the times but in the end minor skirmishes, sort of like the idioc WWIII during Countdown to Infinite Crisis (or Final Crisis?).
And after all these decades, we still have not seen Hate Face. AND THEN…HATE FACE IN KOREA.
Don’t ask me where, but I believe it was established that Superboy returned to the past like, a minute after he left.
“Shadow Woman- died saving the Science Asteroid”.
It’s… an ASTEROID. LET IT GO.
““What would Blok and White Witch’s offspring be like?””
Strong but MYSTERIOUS.
“Don’t ask me where, but I believe it was established that Superboy returned to the past like, a minute after he left.”
He always forgets his glasses.
“the death of Karate Kid was a hard one to take–as I really liked that character”
Keith Giffen HATED him. HAAAAAAATED him. UTTERLY LOATHED him.
“instead of making him look like Dr. Frank-N-Furter…”
LET’S
DO
THE TIME WARP
AGAIN!!!!!
So, Invisible Kid died? Did they ever find his corpse?
If they couldn’t find him by sight, they could wait a few hours and find him by smell.
This comment thread is a beautiful reminder of how the internet *should* be used!
— MrJM
A few thoughts…
@ Thom H. and LouReedRichards
I’m glad that a lot of people enjoy Sasha’s Casually Comics Youtube channel. It is also worth noting that Sasha has as many costume changes and makeovers as all the iterations of all of the members of the Legion combined!
@Snark Shark
I wasn’t aware of Keith Giffen’s intense hatred of Karate Kid. That’s a shame, as he was actually a solid character and had nothing to do with the schmaltzy movie character of the same name. Also, Val Armorr is one of the few Legionnaires who got his own solo title. And I thought the Karate Kid/Princess Projectra relationship was always cool. And Mike Grell did a great redesign on Karate Kid (to counterbalance the not so great Cosmic Boy redesign). In fact my favorite Keith Giffen cover on his whole Legion run is LOSH no. 288, “The Legionnaire’s Made For Burning,” set on Orando, back when Bruce Patterson was inker and Giffen was doing his best Jim Starlin-meets-Philippe Druillet derived work. It always bummed me out that Giffen got progressively sloppier on the Legion (and other books) once he started aping Jose Munoz ‘s art style. I also never cared much for most of Giffen’s costume redesigns–many of which looked regressive. His Timber Wolf costume was pretty good, though.
But that raises an interesting question: How many artists who served time on Legion stories over the decades hated drawing the characters–either en masse, or specific characters because they thought their powers or costumes were lame? Do any Legion fans out there know? Are there interviews where Curt Swan, Al Plastino, Win Mortimer, John Forte, Dave Cockrum, Mike Grell, Jim Sherman, Joe Staton, Jimmy Janes, Dan Jurgens, Steve Lightle, Greg LaRocque, etc., talk about this? And, as I suppose Giffen was probably vocal in fanzines about his distaste for some of the characters beyond Karate Kid, is that why so many Legionnaires bit the dust during Five Years Later?
Also, I wonder why Grell redesigned Colossal Boy’s costume when the Cockrum redesign was so much better? Thankfully, that Grell costume was dropped fairly quickly. Kudos to Grell on the Dawnstar costume, though!
@Wayne
Re: Chemical King and WW VII, I hate to say it, but I’m a bit skeptical that by the 30th (or 31st) century that the Legion characters live in they will only be on WW VII…I’m thinking a minimum of one World War per every 100 years from the 21st century to the 30th (or 31st ) century seems more likely…because humans constantly fail at peace, sadly.
Anyhow, other interesting Legion topics could include:
What if Dave Cockrum got his art back and stayed on the Legion instead of leaving for Marvel because Carmine Infantino/1970s DC company policy was so inflexible about returning original art? And what if Murray Boltinoff had made a better decision and allowed Cockrum to use Nightcrawler and The Outsiders in Legion stories? How would this have impacted the New X-Men, I wonder? Would Len Wein still have created Thunderbird, Colossus, and Storm–and how different would their costumes look? Actually, I think without Cockrum jumping ship, we don’t get Storm, but a male mutant character called Typhoon instead. Would Sunfire have stuck around and been utilized? Would Thunderbird have been spared? Or would Havok and Polaris have remained on the team?
What are peoples thoughts on the Bronze Age JLA/JSA/Legion team up against Mordru in JLA nos. 147- 148, “Crisis in the 30th Century!” story? Or other Bronze Age pre-COIE LOSH team ups with Batman in the Brave & the Bold, and Superman in DC Comics Presents?
Were there other Bronze Age/Copper Age Legion weddings that people wished had happened? I’m trying to recall if Mon-El and Shadow Lass, Ultra Boy and Phantom Girl, Sunboy and Gigi Cusimano, or Element Lad and Shvaughn Erin ever tied the knot? If memory serves, beyond Bouncing Boy and Duo Damsel, and Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl, I think I recall Karate Kid and Princess Projectra, and Colossal Boy and Yera getting hitched.
How do people feel about more Alternative Timeline Adult Legion stories building on the Silver and Bronze Age appearances of the Legion (with Brainiac 5 smoking a pipe!) as a mini-series or Black label book?
Giffen hated Karate Kid so much, he killed him three times! (The original, the SW6 one, and the retroboot whatever in the pages of 52.) His stated reasons for hating the Kid was that he thought “super karate” was a dumb power, especially in the Legion. Personally, I like Val, but…
@Cassandra Miller
Thanks for the Giffen/Karate Kid info.
Wasn’t it Jim Shooter who created Karate Kid–probably at the age of 15?
I mean, beyond Giffen’s obsession with killing off Karate Kid, couldn’t Paul Levitz or some other writer have somehow fixed the situation by modifying Val’s power so that he was a mutant with a super healing factor and an ability to predict any opponent’s next move in hand to hand combat–as well as being a “super” Karate Kid? Kind of give him a Wolverine meets Karnak from The Inhumans makeover–minus the claws?
Also, was it Levitz or Giffen or both of them who kind of made Sunboy a Johnny Storm knockoff in terms of being a bit of a narcissistic player when it came to romance?
Another fun idea could be a DC/Marvel X-Men/Legion of Super-Heroes crossover limited series or one-shot, set in the Bronze Age with a Chris Claremont and Paul Levitz (or Cary Bates) script, and maybe art by John Byrne and Terry Austin, or Mike Grell, or Jim Sherman, or Paul Smith.
Some of the Legionnaires could be time travelling and accidentally end up on Earth- 616 circa 1979. Somehow, the Fatal Five also end up there. And the Sentinels could be part of the plot as well.
We could see Nightcrawler musing on what it would be like to be part of the Legion in a future where he wouldn’t be shunned for looking different, and he would become friends with Chameleon Boy. We could see Cyclops vs Emerald Empress and the Emerald Eye of Ekron. We could see Mano vs Wolverine. And Wolverine getting along with Timber Wolf. Maybe Magneto or Polaris and Cosmic Boy would meet. Maybe Storm and Dawnstar would form a sisterhood. Maybe Wildfire and Cyclops would become pals. Maybe Tyroc could be in the story and meet and bond with Banshee. Maybe Phoenix and Saturn Girl would bond. Lots of fun possibilities.
Levitz tried pretty hard to make KK have a “real” superpower – something to do with recognizing and exploiting weaknesses? It was pretty desperate stuff.
Giffen also killed off Sunboy at least twice, so he obviously didn’t like him either. Giffen’s contempt for some Legion lore and characters was kind of hilarious.
“so, Invisible Kid died? Did they ever find his corpse?”
The stench gave it away eventually.
“And, as I suppose Giffen was probably vocal in fanzines about his distaste for some of the characters beyond Karate Kid, is that why so many Legionnaires bit the dust during Five Years Later?”
In fact, I read what he said in an issue of “Back Issue”. beyond that, I dunno.
“Len Wein”
all I know is that guy should have gotten A LOT more in royalties! Co-creating SWAMP THING for DC and Wolverine and most of the New X-Men for Marvel!
“How many artists who served time on Legion stories over the decades hated drawing the characters–either en masse,”
I expect team books are a bit tiring to draw, SO many costumes to remember, SO many characters to keep track of! I think all of them tire of it eventually, except maybe George Perez.
@Snark Shark
If memory serves, that is why there was a lot of turn over of artists on All-Star Squadron. A ton of characters/costumes, plus trying to keep things period-accurate to the 1940s in terms of cars, street clothes, historical figures, aircraft, tanks, etc. And this was being drawn back in the ’80s, pre-internet, so it was laborious for artists to look up a lot of this stuff, even if Roy Thomas sent them some photocopies or clippings.
But at least we had a nice start to that series with Rich Buckner, Adrian Gonzalez, Jerry Ordway, Mike Machlan, and Rick Hoburg providing some very good art.
That makes sense, given you’ve got both silver AND golden age versions of some characters, PLUS it seems a lot of the old characters had a variation on the red/white/blue colorscheme.