So it all kinda started with this post on the Blooskees:
…which was just me doing a little light afternoon internet trolling, managing to appall at least one professional comic book artist who hadn’t heard about what the film adaptation did to the Alan Moore and Brian Bolland classic one-shot from 1988.
For those not familiar, the flick in question was this 2016 direct-to-disc release:
…which had the not-inconsiderable virtues of that Bolland cover, and Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill reprising their long-held roles as the Batman and Joker respectively, and the not-inconsiderable vice of adding an extra half-hour, 40 minutes, whatever, to the beginning of the film.
Why was that extra stuff added? To establish a sexual relationship between Barbara “Batgirl” Gordon and ol’ Bats. Is this unnecessarily creepy? Oh yes indeedy. But apparently it was needed to give Batman added incentive to go after the Joker in the second half which attempts to adapt the actual comic book. Because “you shot my crime-fighting partner” wasn’t enough a motivation for Batman to seek out the Joker, I guess.
Anyway, I didn’t really come here to bury, or praise, that movie. But what did happen as a result of that first post is that I started looking into some of the back history of Batman: The Killing Joke. Which I started to do when I was supposed to be working, so I put the kibosh on that after a bit and decided to save it for You, the Blog Reader.
I should note here the invaluable resource that is this ‘zine search engine. While I do have, for example, every Amazing Heroes and every Comics Journal, forcing my withering eyeballs to peer at every page via candlelight within my cavernous library is perhaps too much to ask.
One of the topics I was trying to determine early one was the idea that The Killing Joke was originally intended as an out-of-continuity story, like the “Elseworlds” imprint that would being shortly after this comics release. I have a vague memory of that being so, many people online have a similar memory, and I suspect that may have been said at one point or another by someone associated with DC. However, in my extensive searching via that database, I can find no reference to such a thing.
Now, that doesn’t mean such evidence doesn’t exist…I could be missing references to early news stories about “UNTITLED BATMAN PROJECT” or passing references by Moore or Bolland to “this ‘What If’ story I’m doing.” But if anyone’s got an official reference from DC, or the creators, to the story being out-of-continuity, or even a news story along those lines, please send it my way.
I did find what may very well be the earliest reference to Killing Joke, from this Alan Moore interview in Amazing Heroes #71 (1985). Apparently, this all started as a proposed Batman/Judge Dredd crossover. Moore says:
Moore describes this deal not working out, then adds:
Okay, clearly Moore references an earlier Comics Interview article with Bolland, which was in #19 and doesn’t mention the “alternative Batman” project. (He does end the interview saying he’d like to do a Batman story.) Anyway, Moore’s comments are obviously light on details but I think it’s pretty clear this is the embryonic state of Killing Joke.
One thing I noticed in my searches were a couple of blurbs noting that the forthcoming Killing Joke was going to be colored by Bolland himself. For example, here’s one from Amazing Heroes #133 (1988):
Now, obviously the final product was not colored by Bolland, but by John Higgins. More recent editions have been recolored by Bolland (to a minor level of chagrin by some folks), so that’s been a long time coming, it seems.
Back to the continuity issue, it was pretty clearly in official DC continuity by the time it was released, given that DC preceded its release with a Batgirl Special:
As you can see in the above blurb from Amazing Heroes #137, and as I saw here in there in other things that came up in my searches, it was promoted as a Killing Joke tie-in. I mean, I read that special at the time, then Killing Joke, and frankly there was barely a thematic or artistic connection between the two (though the Mike Mignola/Karl Kesel cover is nice). It was pointed out to me that it was there to give some kind of happy ended to Batgirl’s story, given what happens to her, which, you know, fair enough.
And as we all know, the events of Killing Joke, specifically what happened to Batgirl, plays into later DC Universe shenanigans (specifically her stint as Oracle). We also had the story in…Legends of the Dark Knight which incorporates elements from Killing Joke. Plus, there’s that Three Jokers story from a couple of years back that ties into it as well, despite Three Joker‘s own questionable status of whether or not it’s in official continuity (despite the story’s impetus being in-universe and technically still unresolved).
There are probably other references I’m missing here, but the question of what is or is not in “continuity” can be bit of a chump’s game given DC’s history of rebootery. But however it may have began, Killing Joke remains in DC’s official history mix.
A couple other things i turned up: this bit from a Brian Bolland article in Comics Scene Spectacular #3 (1990):
Well, that would have been interesting. Never happened, but we got some swell Joker covers out of him, though.
Here, in Comics Interview #77 (1990), Yvonne Craig, 1960s Batman‘s Batgirl, talks about Killing Joke:
Oh c’mon, why would you do that to this poor woman.
Another thing because you guys are gonna bring it up: this new wild edition of Killing Joke, presented on the manufacturer’s site, but you might have an easier time looking at it here.
And finally, if you’re a Killing Joke completist, friend, you need a copy of Web of Spider-Man #50 (1989) by Gerry Conway, Alex Saviuk, and Keith Williams:
Your reference to Barbara Gordon’s time as Oracle as a ‘stint’ sent me to look up just how long she used that identity. It was from 1989 (Suicide Squad #23) to 2011 (New 52 Batgirl)—22 years.
Interestingly, 22 years was about the same length of time that she was Batgirl the first time around: 1967 (Detective Comics #359) to 1989 (Killing Joke); or if you’d prefer: 1966 (Batman TV show) to 1988 (Batgirl Special #1).
(Post New 52 she’s used both Batgirl and Oracle identities, switch between the two seemingly at creative teams’ whims, and that’s more math than I want to do this morning.)
Interesting. I’ve always wondered why DC allowed Moore to effectively end Batgirl. I doubt her comics were flying off the shelves, but taking out a classic character like that was pretty rare at the time.
Were they just going to say “she got super-surgery and now she’s fine” at some point? Did someone already have Oracle in mind? Or did they just not really have a plan for Barbara Gordon?
I have a feeling it’s the last one, and then Ostrander and Yale gave her direction later. Still, what a way to go: as motivation for Batman to find common ground with his worst enemy, the guy who just *shot you in the spine*. Not great, Alan.
Okay, it appears that I should have done 1 second of research before I commented. Here’s a little history of how Oracle came about:
https://www.cbr.com/a-perhaps-unnecessary-guide-to-oracles-formative-years/
Pretty much what I thought. I’ve probably even read that at some point.
Mike: feel free to ask the hive mind if you have work to do. I do that instead of resorting to AI. You mailed me the 3 Jokers books back in the day. You mentioned non-continuity (or someone did) and the first mention was in The Darkseid War in JL, the last of the new 52 boolks to come out. Which would effectively put that story on Earth-52.The new 52 being a universe created by Dr. Manhattan in BEFORE WATCHMEN. Fine. Then in DOOMSDAY CLOCK, Geoff always on the dreaded Deadline Doom, it seems to be that Manhattan’s “metaverse” still exists, that he didn’t snap his fingers and destroy itr or whatever he would do. Not a great book, but it does read better in trade.
And, I’ve said it before, thanks for sending me books, even those three copies of CYBER FORCE#3 to get me through the plague.
I do recall the Batgirl special, written by Mindy Newell (?). I liked the book, and you might recall Batgirl and Supergirl’s final conversation in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS before Supergirl dies. Something along the lines of Batgirl admiring Supergirl for not being afraid.
Lastly, I haven’t seen you say “hoo-har” lately or mention AND THEN…KOREA! Just sayin’.
Everyone enjoy the weekend.
I’ve read somewhere Killing Joke was originally scheduled for a Batman annual, but ended up as a standalone graphic novel as prestige books had become a thing during the time Bolland had taken to draw it. I’ll try and dig up a reference for it.
My favourite bit of that Moore/Bolland Batman/Judge Dredd story is that DC were very keen, but IPC (2000 AD’s publisher) thought Batman wasn’t sufficiently popular to bring them the sort of sales numbers they wanted. How times change eh?
Things had certainly changed by 1991 when there was a Batman/Judge Dredd crossover written by Alan Grant, with multiple other crossovers between the two following through the decade.
Apparently Brian Holland has also heard this thing about Killing Joke being a repurposed Batman annual and says it’s a load of auld rubbish. From Wikipedia –
“In the introduction to the story as it appears in the trade paperback DC Universe: The Stories of Alan Moore, Brian Bolland disputes the widely held belief that the story started as a Batman annual story and ended up as a prestige-format book. Bolland recalls that the idea for a one-off Batman story focusing on the Joker—with Batman more of an incidental character—was his. Bolland says that in 1984, Dick Giordano told him he could do any project for DC he wanted, and Bolland requested to do a Batman/Joker prestige book with Moore as writer.”
I think the “The Killing Joke story was originally going to be a Batman Annual” myth grew out of an Alan Moore quote years after the fact where he was saying he didn’t think much of the story he came up with for TKJ. Moore said something like, “Brian’s art is lovely, but I don’t think the story is anything spectacular. You might be pleased with it if you came across it in a Batman Annual, but that’s about it.”
The Batgirl Special is by Barbara Kesel nee Randall, not Mindy Newell.
“prestige books had become a thing during the time Bolland had taken to draw it. ”
As Bolland said, “Two years to draw the wretched thing”.
I had that Spider-Man issue back in the day! I remember being pleased to find that Easter Egg panel.
And yes, as I have been a Prog Ruin reader for forever, I too miss the days of the Korea and other non sequitur panels.
@Joe Gualtieri. Thanks, I kinda wanted to throw Newell’s name out there for nostalgia and made the ?. I’d forgotten Barbara Kesel had been scripting back then.
@N: Angel Love and “Cocaine?” Simpler times.
“If there is ever a backup character in Detective, it will be a new female Bat-character, but she won’t even be created until maybe next winter.” Whenever the Alan Moore/Brian Bolland Joker graphic novel appears (it’s not yet scheduled), it will, says [Dennis] O’Neil mysteriously, “establish the need for a new female Bat-character. When we get around to creating her, my one requirement is that she be as highly motivated as Batman. Batgirl was a weekend crimefighter. I don’t know who will actually be working on it-I’ve talked with any number of [creative people] about doing it.”
Amazing Heroes Preview Special #3, Summer 1986, page 36
So definitively planned to be in mainline continuity and have consequences two years prior to publication.
(there’s another place later that O’Neil talks about a new Batwoman character he’s writing himself, which never came out)
I haven’t read Batman:The Killing Joke in decades, but according to one online source I was reading, there is photo in one panel in The Killing Joke which shows Bat Woman (Kathy Kane), Bat-Girl (Betty Kane) Bat-Mite, and Ace the Bat-Hound. I find it interesting that Alan Moore and Brian Bolland were paying homage to characters from early Silver Age Batman, while simultaneously wreaking havock on a character from later Silver Age Batman–Barbara Gordon, Batgirl.
When one stops to think about Jason Todd’s fate as well, it makes one wonder if editor Denny O’Neil just wanted to do a slash and burn on basically the entire Batman Family?
Of course, I suppose that COIE paved the way for all of this with what befell Barry Allen Flash, Supergirl, and other heroes. Barbara Gordon deserved better.
But personally, I like what DC was doing about a decade earlier with the late ’70s and the “DC Explosion” era.
I thought it was cool when Bob Rozakis brought Batwoman back ina few Batman Family and Freedom Fighters issues, while her niece, the original Bat-Girl, was reintroduced in the Teen Titans comics as a member of Teen Titans West. And Batwoman also appeared in a few Brave and the Bold issues, as a supporting character, in great stories written by Alan Brennert.
It seems like the way to go for O’Neil would have been to have The Huntress as the new prominent backup female character–but maybe she was still being featured as the backup character in Wonder Woman? I do seen to recall that there was at least a Huntress mini-series with her new identity established as Helena Bertinelli.
Since DC now has an Omniverse, I would like to see more stories with some of these more obscure characters.
Bring back The Super Sons from the ’70s, and the original Bat Woman and Bat-Girl (as actual Bat-Girl and not Flame Bird).
It would also be nice to see some limited series by some of the early Bronze Age writers, like Mike Friedrich, Steve Englehart, Elliot S! Maggin, or Gerry Conway, writing hitherto untold stories of the 1970s/1980s Earth-1 JLA. Or Cary Bates writing some new Legion of Super-Heroes stories set in the Bronze Age when Wildfire was the newest addition to the team.
Also, it would be cool to have an “Untold Legends of the Batman Family” limited series set in the late ’70s Bronze Age with stories by Bob Rozakis, Steve Englehart, Alan Brennert, Gerry Conway, John Byrne, and Jim Starlin; and art by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, Michael Golden, Jim Starlin, John Byrne and Terry Austin. The stories could feature Kathy Kane/Batwoman, Betty Kane/Bat-Girl, Barbara Gordon/Batgirl, Bat-Mite, Ace the Bat-Hound, Man-Bat, Alfred, Commission Gordon, Dick Grayson/Robin of Earth 1 and Earth 2, Helena Wayne/Huntress of Earth-2, and Bruce Wayne/Batman of Earth 1 and Earth 2.
I am trying to recall if DC ever published a story in which the Earth-1 Batman and the Earth-2 Batman ever actually met each other? I don’t recall them ever meeting pre-COIE, but in the last 40 or so years was a story ever published where they met? If not, I think a Bronze Age story where Earth-1 Batman and Earth-2 Batman team up and defeat Earth-3 Owl-Man could be an intriguing story. And I could see Paul Levitz or Alan Brennert writing a cool story, where Earth-2 Bruce Wayne/Batman is Commissioner Wayne by this point, so he would be doing more of the detective work, whereas Earth-1 Bruce Wayne/Batman would be doing more of the physical crime fighting work. Maybe Earth-2 Huntress and Earth-2 Robin could make cameo appearances?
Also, we know that Barbara Gordon met Kathy Kane in the ’70s in a few Batman Family and Freedom Fighters stories, but how about an untold ’70s adventure where Barbara Gordon Batgirl meets the original Bat-Girl (Betty Kane) and they fight crime together? Maybe they could fight King Cobra and the Cobra Gang (the villains from Bat-Girl’s first appearance in Batman Vol. 1, no. 139), or Kite-Man, or Crazy Quilt, or Poison Ivy?
Another “untold story” that could be a fun read, would be a situation, circa 1977, where the elder JSA members and the JLA are all captured, so it is up to the 1977 Teen Titans:Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Speedy, Mal Duncan as the Guardian, Bumblebee, and Duela Dent/Harlequin to team up with Earth-2’s Super Squad: Robin, Power Girl, Star-Spangled Kid, and Huntress, and come to the rescue. And perhaps the original Earth-2 Guardian (Jim Harper), and original Earth-2 Harlequin (Molly Mayne) could make cameos in the story and help the younger heroes. It could be an interesting Paul Levitz/Bob Rozakis co-plotted story. And maybe Joe Staton could be the artist.
A few other ideas would be: a 1970s team-up story of the Earth-1 and Earth-2 Robins, which, if Mike Freideich wrote it, could pick up from the Robins’ friendship shown in JLA Vol. 1, nos. 91-92; a team up between Earth-2 Batwoman and Catwoman where Kathy Kane realizes that she will lose Earth-2 Bruce Wayne to Selina Kyle–if Alan Brennert wrote it, he could expand on the backstory of the romance between Earth-2 Batman and Catwoman, which he chronicled in Brave and the Bold no. 197; a time travel meeting between the Bronze Age late ’70s Teen Titans and the Legion of Super-Heroes by Bob Rozakis and Cary Bates.
Or a limited series featuring only Steve Ditko-created characters: The Creeper, Hawk & Dove, Shade the Changing Man, Stalker, Odd Man, and Prince Gavyn, Starman–I could see John Byrne or Jim Starlin having some fun with this. Perhaps it could be an Earth-1 and Earth-Charlton crossover event where the Earth-1 Ditko characters encounter the Earth- Charlton Ditko characters: Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, The Question, and Nightshade circa anytime from the late ’60s-1980–before COIE mainstreamed the Charlton Action Heroes into DC Continuity. If John Byrne worked on this, maybe Doomsday + 1 or Rog-2000 could also get thrown into the mix.
And,in general DC could brand any or all of these ideas as “The DC Explosion: Untold Stories from the Bronze Age.”
That way they could also have Secret Society of Super Villains, Freedom Fighters, Challenges of the Unknown, etc. return and resolve storylines if plot points from before those titles were cancelled in the late ’70s.
Maybe they could even get Walt Simonson in to write and draw more Bronze Age Metal Men stories? Or Jim Starlin to do more O.M.A.C.?
Just more fuel for the speculation, Barbara appears in a wheelchair in Batman #428, the third part of Death in the Family. That was October 1988 and Killing Joke came out in March 1988, so just to say a decision toward continuity had at least been made by that point.